Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Money: An interview with IFS therapist, Derek Scott

The Internal Family Systems Model is an integrative approach to individual psychotherapy developed by Richard C. Schwartz in the 1980s. It combines systems thinking with the view that the mind is made up of relatively discrete subpersonalities, each with its own unique viewpoint and qualities. If you prefer to watch the video, head over to YouTube via the link below. The interview is timestamped and captioned for your ease. If you prefer to read, I have a transcript below.

This interview explains the links between IFS and how to locate parts with beliefs around money, work, worth that may be getting in the way of our fulfilment, wholeness and happiness.

Derek Scott is the founder of IFSCA, a certified IFS therapist and registered social worker with over 35 years of experience.

This is a rough transcript of the video. Due to time pressures, I haven’t carefully edited it to make it very concise. I hope you enjoy reading it if that is your preferred method.

Cleona Hi, Derek. Lovely to see you again. I got to meet you and spend quite a bit of time with you when I did the stepping stones,  IFS course which was about a whole new world for me. I'd never heard about internal family systems. And I was wondering if maybe we could start with just a little bit of introduction of who you are and where you're based, and then a little bit about IFS.

Derek Sure. Thanks, Cleona. I'm just outside of Toronto, Canada, and I'm up in the country looking at the trees. And I head up an organization called IFSCA (https://ifsca.ca/) and that's based on the internal family systems model. It's a model of therapy, but it's really based on an understanding of the personality.

We now know that the personality operates as a system and we've got a whole bunch of different parts of us and that has revolutionized our understanding of both psychology and therapy as you know, from taking the [00:01:00] course. So I am very excited to be teaching that and came across it 17 years ago.

And I've been in love with that understanding ever since.

Cleona And could you share a little bit about internal family systems for members of ...who might be watching this who are not familiar with the term?

Derek Sure, absolutely. So the founder of this model is a guy named Dick Schwartz and he was a family systems therapist.

So we worked with, you know, family of members, all in the room, trying to sort out what's going on with the dynamics. And then with the individuals, he was working with, he realized that on the inside, there's a whole bunch of parts that have similar dynamics to those on the outside with the families. So we call it internal family systems.

And the understanding is that when we get triggered, I'm sure most people know that word. You get triggered. When we fly off the handle, all of a sudden, or you find yourself shaming someone, or you've got that internal voice that tells you you're [00:02:00] no good. Well, you should do better. Or you're too sensitive.

You're not sensitive enough. You know, these are all the different parts of us that we can hear. And I had the understanding is that they all have a positive intent, even if they seem harsh. So there's also a whole number of parts that learn, all kinds of things in the world as we grow up and they get fixed in their ideas and unless we revisit them, they will stay fixed in their ideas.

And that's where the connection to ideas about money comes in for people.

Cleona Yeah. It's so fascinating. I watched, well, I heard Tim Ferris and Dr Richard Schwartz talk about IFS and I'm so glad that it's going mainstream. I read a little bit about you and how you, you know, started your journey into therapy by thinking that, there was something wrong with you. And that's such a common experience, isn't it? And also with money, like there's, there's, there's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy.

So many of these concepts seem to be tied up in our experience with money. If somebody was looking to explore parts and money, what would you say to them? Like where should they start?

Derek I would probably have them start by just thinking about the family, the family of origin what they learned growing up about money, what they may have learned from the grandparents or what their parents may have learned about money.

So very simply just start writing about it. Because when we're children, we're in a world where money exists, right. But we have no internal sense of it. You don't have to do things to make money. We might have to do chores or something, but our ideas about money come usually from the family and from the broader culture.

So depending on your family, there'll be all sorts of ideas about money that you've picked up. And that a part of you may still be holding. Hmm. So I'll give you a few examples. Is that okay? Yes. We'd love some. Okay, good. Right. So of course I work with therapists mainly because that's how I teach.

Right. And many therapists believe that being a therapist is a kind of spiritual calling. And if it's a spiritual calling, well, you shouldn't be paid for it. You should be, you know, privileged to be doing this work. But with psychotherapists, we're not monks. Right? But that idea comes from both the Judeo-Christian ideology.

Derek That's part of our culture in the West. And the idea that it's somehow something dirty about money. And if you're doing something healing, then you shouldn't be taking money. So that's one example. That's why a lot of therapists struggle to charge what they're worth. Because there's a part of them saying, Oh no, I shouldn't charge that much because I'm doing good work.

Well, if that part takes the lead, but later another part is resentful. How come I don't make as much money. I have a mortgage to pay blah, blah, blah. And that resentment can come out towards the clients. So it's really helpful to know where do you get your ideas? That it's not okay to. Charge what I'm worth and where and how come you're so resentful because those are two different parts.

I was going a bit further into, of course, but again, if you write it down, what did you learn growing up? Did you have parents stressed about money? Did you have a family that associated money with power and success? If you had that and you don't feel powerful and successful, then a part of you might say, well, I need to make as much money as possible.

And that part may never allow you to rest. Because it doesn't have an idea of what's enough money. It just knows you have to keep making it. And that's on the other end of the scale from the, I don't charge enough. And one client I worked with was a, by every measure in the capitalist system was a "success".

He was the CEO of a multi-national. He retired early, he had you know, a couple of houses and a boat and knew all the stuff that we're meant to aspire to. He was also binge drinking every other weekend. And that was, and he almost lost his partner. So in working with him turned out that his family of origin very strict  Italian mother, had him doing the books in the family when he was 12 and would beat him when he got it wrong.

So he felt, and she kept telling him he was worthless, he was no good, you know, wish we hadn't had this boy. So a part of him felt that... took that on, you know, I'm completely worthless. And then another part said: I'll prove myself! I'll be a success! And that part took the lead, drove his, drove his system and he was about 55 and he retired.

And then the drinking started really heavily because at 55 he had lost his identity. He was now a retiree and you can't say I'm retired, but I used to ...cause then he sounded like a loser. And it turned out that he had this young part that still felt like it was unworthy. And we had to help him with that part.

And it was the other part saying... I'll prove I'm a success... that drove him. Well, you might say that’s not so bad. He has a couple of houses and a yacht, but at 55, he had no connection with his adult children because he had sacrificed his family doing 80 hours, 90 hours a week working when the children were little and his partner was on the verge of leaving him.

So, when a part of us connected to money, which is connected to shame, I'm not okay. In this example... drives the system. You can be an outward success, but inwardly, you don't take it in, right? Because there's still that part that needs help.

Other examples of money growing up. Did your parents fight about money? Was it something that was used as a weapon between the two of you? You know you know, get me this for Christmas and I'll offer you, you know, blah, blah, blah. Is bankruptcy a part of your family of origin story? And if so, was it chaotic? Was it catastrophic? Was it scary when you were a kid? If so, you're going to do whatever you can to avoid bankruptcy, right?

Because that's associated with that six, seven-year-old kid who's frightened... whose parents were going to lose everything in the United States. That was the great depression in the 1920s and so great grandparents hold that, pass it on to their kids who pass it onto their kids. So, those lessons about money get passed on, even if they're not relevant today.

And there's a fascinating piece. I came across in the 1950s in the US when freezers became widely available... freezers are not cost-efficient. You end up spending so much on electricity, at least in those days that the benefits of buying, you know, big pieces of meat and freezing them. For people whose parents were in the depression, there's a saying in the United States, I've got meat in the fridge. And it means I'm safe. It means I'm secure. So our freezer represented safety and security. So, there are all sorts of connections about money that people have.

And then people talk about self-sabotage, but it's not self-sabotage. It’s another part that has some concern about what you're doing with regard to money. So here's another example for men in particular, if I, as a man am more successful than my father, and if more successful means I'm making more money.

There may be some part of me saying, well, that's not good. You're going to shame [00:10:00] him. You're going to betray him. You're going to make him feel like he's not good enough as a man. And if I don't pay attention to that voice, that little part of me is going to make sure I don't make more money than my dad.

But then another part of me is going to be bewildered. You know, how come I keep sabotaging myself making poor investments,  and then there are still other people who, you know, if you did grow up in a family of origin where money was a source of conflict, they just want to push money away. I don't want to think about it.

I'll just let my accountant do all that. Right. If I can afford an accountant or I just, you know, I don't care how much I earn, and there's this kind of averse reaction. And again, it's a young part. We talk about within the internal family systems work, we talked about that part, getting triggered and then taking over.

If you notice you've got this aversion to money or whatever, when you write it down or you think about it, whatever comes to mind, chances are, that's a part of you. And if you can notice that it no longer needs [00:11:00] to take the lead and you have more choices around things like financial success.

Cleona Wow. That's .. all my parts are excited listening to you. It's like a warm bath and everything that I enjoy listening to about money. Thank you. And especially the childhood piece is so important because when we're young, we're so porous and open and, you know, energetically open and we absorb so many things. And of course, if we have an association that, you know, I will be more loved if I'm successful and successful looks like this, then it's that never-ending drive to get more from a place of complete scarcity. And so there's never that feeling of balance that I've got enough, in which case I might ignore everything else in my life that brings me happiness because what I want to do is accumulate. And then there's also, like you said, about religion. Like I was raised Roman Catholic, you know, and sometimes we have the biblical quote wrong.

It's I think it's the love of money that is the root of all evil, but of course, it gets confused to money is bad. And so, you know, you have this. If I am to be a good person and a noble person, then I must be above money. And yet, and yet we live in this world where we want to be good people, but we also need to have enough.

And yeah. And then when we override those parts then we get resentful if we're too generous. So it's, I find internal family systems fascinating because what it does is it allows you to be in touch with all these different parts that... not different levels, but different parts of us. And then, and then come back in some sort of balance.

Derek Yes, that's right. That's right. That's what the work is about. So when you talk about scarcity, it's really …it's an emotional scarcity, [00:13:00] right? That you said we all want to be good people. Well, the understanding with the internal family systems, understanding of the personality is we are all good people.

You're a good person. I'm a good person. We're all inherently good people. You'd never look at a baby. That's my daughter behind me. You'd never look at that baby and say, what's wrong with you. You're not a good person. Makes no sense. Right. So if it doesn't make sense for baby, it doesn't make sense for us.

Now, there may be parts of us that have done extreme things and there may be parts of us that have hurt people. But if they have, they've always believed it's because they're in service of us and because they've needed to. All right. So this isn't an excuse for bad, you know, hurtful behaviour, but it's about understanding the different parts of us in extreme places that can, that can result in that because at our core we're good.

And if there's a part of us that believes I'm not good, that's the emotional scarcity. We have therapeutic tools to help out that part. So it no longer needs to hold that belief. And then the part [00:14:00] trying to prove I'm good in the capitalist structure by making money can relax. That's where the balance comes in more.

And then there's more time for, as you say, other things in your life, family, walking, the dogs, going and getting out in nature, you know, doing, doing things that feel more relaxed and less driven.

Cleona Not this productivity sort of hamster wheel, but just finding joy and fulfilment in the activities and experiences of life of which there are so many, and yet we need, most of us, we need a certain amount of money. We're not monks. So we're living in the system that we live in. And so it's hard to come to balance with.

Derek Well, I came across some research recently - a few years ago, and it was there again in the United States. And you might have been more current on this than I am, but at the time it showed that there was no association beyond making $60,000 a year. There was no increase in happiness. $60,000 a year.

It was kind of what you need in order to feel, you know, content happy that life was okay. Making 70, 80, 90, 250, half a million did not increase people's happiness, but probably increased, what I call a productivity manager. We all have a productivity manager and nothing wrong with that part of us, right.

Likes to be productive. Mine loves to promote this model well and put stuff out in the world like videos so people can learn about this. But I also have other parts that want to do other stuff. I have a young, this might sound strange for anybody that doesn't know the model, but I have a young part of me, 12, 14 years old, who loves to read Marvel comics.

So I get Marvel comics out of the library and he likes to have a nap and read the Marvel comic, this young part of me. So that's what we do. Productivity managers horrified by that part. Could you do so many other things, right? You're nearly 60 years old and you're reading about Spider-Man, what's wrong [00:16:00] with you, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I hear it. I get it. And it's a great part to have. And... that kid, part of me that wants to read a comic, gets to read a comic cause that's what that part wants to do. So when we're able to hold in balance, you know, the many parts that we have that all want a slice of what I call the time pie.

My productivity manager wants me to work 40 hours a week on being productive. My part that walks the dogs insist that we walk the dogs at least an hour a day, probably preferably two in the good weather. I have a part of me that wants to go to yoga. I have a part that wants to read Marvel comics. I have a pot that likes to cook, which means shopping and looking at recipes.

And we all have a whole bunch of parts that all want some time... So that in a balanced system, they don't all get all the time they want. But they know that it's fair. I hear them. And the time that they get is the time that they get. In a system that is more unbalanced -when you've got a productivity manager, particularly concerned with producing, to make money.

And it's driving. You really want to get to know that part of you, if you have a way of doing that, because... in terms of its drivenness... this is where people get migraines, Cleona. And other ailments, if that part is driving the system, at some point, if you get completely out of balance, another part is going to shut you down.

And you know, many highly productive people experience migraines. And the migraine is actually a part of you. If you ask it how come you're bringing me the migraine, it will say I'm shutting you down. You need a break. I don't know if you've ever had one, but after a migraine people report feeling you know, 12 or 24 hours of really hard time gone by...but they come out of it, feeling refreshed, feeling calm... that to-do list is just as long, but they're no longer compelled by it.

And it actually does give you a break. And brings you back into a bit more balance, but it's a bit extreme, right? So if you can catch extreme driving parts, find out what they're all about and what they're connected to. Then we may be in a place where we can make different choices that are more balanced and just lead to a more integrated life, a calmer life, and ultimately a happier life.

Cleona And the concept of asking parts to step back were novel to me, you know, and I use it so much in meetings where I'll have a timekeeper part or a part that comes into interrupt and affects my ability to be present. And then just to be able to say, I hear you, and could you please step back because this is what I'm choosing to do right now, you know?

So, so being able to listen to the parts and not push them away, not reject them, but. But to be in choice about how much you want to engage..is... Was fascinating to me. And I'd never heard of that before.

Derek: Yeah. Yeah. And to let them know that you're, you're here, right? You're taking the lead. I'll share it with you. I had a beautiful response to one of my videos today. I have some videos which are free if people are interested in shame and what shame is and how to get it out of the system and somebody posted a reply and they said I have felt my whole life...like, there's something wrong with me. And then to understand that that's a part of me, that holds the burden of that belief.

They, they wrote that they were in tears when they realized that, because that's all that is, that's what low self-esteem is. It's a part that feels like it’s not good enough but it doesn't mean it's the truth of your whole system. Right. And so, yeah, we do again, sound out to people, not familiar with it, but if you listen to those parts of you, if you become aware of them, then you can, you can negotiate with them.

Right. Oh my God. I've only 10 minutes. Okay. I hear your anxiety and I promise I'll make the best of the 10 minutes. Right. And then it just eases back a little bit. If you don't know how to do that, what tends to happen is you get what we call...blended with that part. Right? So you'll be in the anxiety of the time management for the whole meeting and probably be less productive as well.

So it's a way of recognizing the different parts of us... the different energies that they hold, thanking them, letting them know that we're adults now because some of them are still rooted in being kids or teenagers trying hard. And as you, as you mentioned, when you can do that in a meeting, You're just so much calmer.

So in terms of money, I think people can write it down. Or if you have a meditation practice, you might want to just go inside and ask, you know, for parts with information about money and then wait and see what comes your way. Because if you can get clarity on what's driving your system; if there are parts that are insisting that, you know, it's not okay to make too much money ... How come? What are they saying? Where did they learn that? Do they know that you're an adult now? And that it might be okay to make enough money to pay the mortgage and put your kid through college and have a vacation... that might be okay... now. And conversely, there are parts driving you saying, you know, we have to make lots and lots of money.

Well, how come? Where did that understanding come from? Where did that belief come from and how much? And that's a really good question for those folks that are driven. I was working with a guy who uh, was working 80 hours a week. I needed to uh, make lots of money. So he would have enough. And people say that I just need to know that I've got enough money.

That's a reasonable thing to say, but when I asked him what's enough, he had no answer, which meant that his whole life, he would be striving to get enough, but he had no idea of what enough was. And that was that young part of him saying, you know, I have to make enough money. But he had never followed it through, so he could never relax.

And once he got that, he was able to make adult decisions on what was enough. Sit down, look at a retirement plan and do the things people do. And then not have to spend the 80 hours a week being driven to a goal that was not even articulated.

Cleona Hmm. Not even quantified was the word in my head, my financial services head.

Derek That's a better word. You're a money person. Right.

Cleona: We only have a few minutes left and I want to ask you if you could say a little bit about gambling parts and overspending parts if they're similar.

Derek Sure. So within this understanding of the personality system, there are parts of us that we call Exiles and those are, those are the parts holding distress. Might be some like I'm not okay. I'm not good enough. I'm not safe, whatever that is. And when those parts of us get triggered, like if Cleona, if we hang up and then you call me back and you say, Derek, I don't think you did a really good interview. That might land on a part of me that feels like it's not good enough. And that would begin to feel dreadful.

Oh God, I did a terrible thing. Cleona hates me. Why am I so bad? So if that starts to come up, I don't want to sit here feeling that way. Right? So another part will say, you know what? We're just going to distract you from that. We're going to do something else or we're going to provide some comfort right. Now, depending on the personality system, that part might get angry.

Might get angry at you. Or might decide to go and have a drink, or might decide to go and smoke a joint or might decide to watch porn. We call these firefighters right? They want to distract from the part's holding the distress.  And some of those are gamblers. So some of those will say, well, we'll just go and hit the slots.

Right. I was in, I don't know if you've ever been to Las Vegas. I was there once. And it fascinated me, Cleona. I played the slot machines when I lived in England, growing up in the pubs and I used to enjoy those when one arm bandits, we called them. So I'm in Las Vegas and there's this woman feeding coins into the machine and she gets a payout.

Well, I'm not a gambler. So when I get a payout, I go, Oh, that's great. I made five pounds. She had to move on to the next machine because she didn't have the patience to wait for the payout to finish. She had to keep... out of this compulsive... looked addictive to me. I know research has shown that gambling has the same effect as cocaine in terms of the pleasure centres in the brain.

So, again...Nothing wrong with gambling. If you like a flutter on the horses or whatever you do, this isn't a judgment, but if it feels compelled, but if it's like a half, if you feel, if the, if it's risky, if I've lost my house, my partner is going to leave me then the same as you would with alcohol, nothing wrong with alcohol, but when does it become an addiction?

Right? Nothing wrong with smoking weed. When does it become an addiction? Nothing wrong with porn but if it is five hours a day. You know, what's going on. Right. So gambling can have that and so can overspending. Again, if a part gets triggered around scarcity, if you grew up in a family that was poor and you know, and that part gets triggered, or I don't know if we could, if we can do that, then another part might say, let's just spend it.

Let's just spend, and then we see credit card debts mounting up. I'll give you a concrete example of this. Humana may not want to use this when you edit the video, but I was working with a woman and she'd had a horrible, horrible childhood. And so I was helping her get in touch with some of those parts that were still stuck in that horrible childhood.

And there was... so her mother was disciplining her when she was six. That's what the mother called it and the way she disciplined her, but she had her in the living room with her head back and she poured a jar of pepper into her mouth because she had said a rude word. I know it's ghastly abuse. So she was listening to this part of herself.

And I said, can you let that little girl know you're there? And then she did this. I have to go shopping. Right. I got it. Okay. That's a part of you, but you're in the middle of a therapy session, so you're not going to go shopping right now, but let it know that, but that's where the shopping part we'll jump in and try and make you feel better by compulsively buying stuff.

That's why many people get bewildered... they don't know why they keep buying stuff they don't need. And again, a part of you, why do you keep doing that? It will tell you, it will tell you how it believes it's helping.

Cleona Fascinating! Really fascinating. So I know you offer courses, and I will certainly link your courses in the YouTube description.

But if people wanted to read a book or learn more about this, could you suggest one beginner level and one more intermediate level resource?

Derek Yeah. The book I'd most recommend is Introduction to internal family systems by Dr Richard Schwartz. And a lot of people like to access information by videos.

So I have, I think 60 videos of my YouTube channel and one is called simply understanding the personality system. If you link to that, it's nine minutes long, but it really outlines what we're talking about here. And then if people have more interest, they might want to read up.

Cleona Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. I love your videos. That's what got me interested in learning about IFS. So this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Derek. It's really wonderful to have this time to talk about money and thank you for saying yes.